05/08 WP, Five thoughts on the potential S&P downgrade

by 
Standard & Poor’s announced Friday night that it downgraded the U.S. government’s AAA credit rating. The administration reportedly has been pressuring the credit rating agency to reconsider.
Tyler Cowen has six useful thoughts here. I’d add a few more:
1) S&P is downgrading their estimation of our political system, not our actual ability to pay our debts. Indeed, the past 36 hours offered a stunning demonstration of the market’s faith in our ability to pay our debts. The panic sent investors rushing to buy Treasuries, sending yields on 10-year Treasuries to 2.4 percent -- that’s almost nothing -- and demonstrating that American debt is still considered the safest bet in the world. That vote of confidence under real world conditions is far more important than anything S&P says.
2) Of course S&P is downgrading our political system. Did you see the nonsense we pulled over the past few months? The Republican Party took the country to the brink of default, and for what? A smaller and less certain deficit-reduction deal than they could have gotten if they had been willing to compromise with the Democrats. And then Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell said these default-driven deals wouldbe the norm around Washington from now on. Why shouldn’t S&P downgrade our debt?
3) This is very odd timing from S&P. The markets are very fragile right now. But you can take that both ways: It suggests that S&P either wanted to make a huge splash with their downgrade, or, because they’re doing it at a time when investors have precisely zero other options they like and are thus likely to continue to hold Treasuries -- see point #1 -- that they don’t want to make too much of a splash.
4) The S&P might call out Republicans for refusing to accept any deal that increases taxes. This could be important. I’m often told that there are a large number of Senate Republicans who would like to pass a grand bargain even if it includes revenues. Note, for instance, the positive reaction many Senate Republicans had to the Gang of Six plan, which raised $2 trillion in revenues. If this is true, then the S&P report will give these Republicans the excuse they have needed to strike a compromise.
5) It is entirely possible that a downgrade will not show up in Treasury yields, but will nevertheless harm the economy by leading to a downgrade of various types of debt linked to federal payments (state and municipal debt, certain forms of corporate debt, etc.) and contributing to the general climate of “we’re not out of the woods yet.” There’s no particular reason a corporation or entrepreneur should have been feeling confident about our prospects for recovery last month, but there’s absolutely no chance they’re feeling confident about our prospects this week.
Related: Megan McArdle has more commentary. There’s also thisreport from the centrist think tank Third Way, though I think the scenario is describes is more alarmist than this particular situation warrants. Here’s my interview with the S&P director responsible for the downgrade, if it happens.
By   |  07:17 PM ET, 08/05/2011
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akmakm
Ezra or Dylan - Am I missing something? S&P says they're downgrading the US because they don't believe Repubs will allow the necessary tax increases after 2012. But Obama could single handedly increase taxes by not signing a Bush tax cut extension and vetoing any new tax cuts. That's right, isn't it? So isn't S&P point blank telling Obama that if he commits to letting the Bush tax cuts expire that the US would retain its AAA rating? Am I over-simplifying?
boston666
One last thing to me rant below. No matter what, no matter how broke, no matter the circumstance, throughout the battle last week, we all heard a lot of talk of SSI payments, pensions, and benefits lost. Not ONE word about ending the B/S wars, cutting back the drones, cruise missiles, bombings. Not ONE word, from EITHER party. Democrats and Republicans alike, there's always money for more wars. I'd hoped with Obama, Pelosi and Reid, we'd be done with Iraq, Afghanistan and the rest and instead, we got even bigger wars in more countries and more killed.

Understandable though. The last folks that stood up as President or as a candidate for President that meant to make it stick against B/S wars were Jack and Bob Kennedy, and look what it got them. And all they had to do was end the draft and instantly, no more protest against B/S wars. You folks keep arguing Left/Right-Dem-Republican. They got us right where they want us.
a23145m1
6 This has an easy solution. Get Goldman Sachs to bundle US treasuries with Greek, Spanish, Italian, and, say, Libyan debt. And, presto: AAA restored!
boston666
This isn't about Democrats and Republicans, Obama/Bush, who was before or after them. Fact is, the principals of Moody's and S&P should ALL be in jail if they were working for Moody's and S&P when those swine were giving AAA "buy" ratings to CDO bundles of sub-prime mortgages from 2002-2009 worldwide. With those ratings, they were supporting brokers, bankers and Wall Street sharpies, ALL the folks that drew TARP money. And NOW they're being responsible? You might not like the yield on treasuries, but you get your money back. S&P and Moody's should be called to the carpet. They gave AAA ratings to securities that gave NO ONE their money back and in the end, WE had to give the money back AFTER the folks that received TARP rescues profited mightily from CDO's. These guys (S&P and Moody's) are arms of the Fed, the Fed's member banks and the investor houses that want to use a rating downgrade to gain higher interest rates on the dough they create out of thin air and buy treasuries with and have loaned on variable interest rate loan contracts.. But anyone with credit card debt, an ARM, or variable-rate business or home loan is going to be well and truly sunk. Think the Fed and banks can't lean on Moody's and S&P to paint a fraudulent rating picture? Think again. Think junk, think CDOs, think the .coms, Enron, the S&Ls, these two rating "services" all endorsed at the investment houses and banks' behest over and over since the 80s. This isn't Democrat/Republican, this is about how much more they'll be allowed to steal. Think people. Your 401K and savings have been sub-divided by half 4 or 5 times since the late 70's. Throughout Democrat and Republican control alike, for 40 years, the theft has gone on. For short term profit and long term ruination, manufacturing is toast. And who always profits? The Wall Streeters, the Banks, the Fed members, the enormous corporate boards whose members serve the boards of each others' corporate boards, voting little people out of work and themselves big pay and benefits. Get with it. STOP with the Democrats did this, the Republicans did this. That ship has SAILED. That Left/Right-Democrat/Republican crappola they divide us with, that gets us arguing with each other while they rake in the last few scraps oughtn't be the issue. It's about money stealing the last of the money. Our manufacturing is gone, savings, human capitol diminished and the great things we use to do in space are over. But Democrats and Republicans alike set it up. The anger should be directed at the people and institutions that run our leadership. And all that's left is for us to be set upon one another, ignorant of the who and how it happened. Very, very sad and disappointing.
johninflorida
Megan McArdle has more commentary

Pink Himalayan Salt Calculators are as accurate and precise as those used by Standard and Poor's. see Enron, S&P, and McMegan's every other post for how accurate (and inane) such commentary is.

Ezra has now officially become the House Pundit. too funny
a23145m1
6 This has an easy solution. Get Goldman Sachs to bundle US treasuries with Greek, Spanish, Italian, and, say, Libyan debt. And, presto: AAA restored!
Bob651
I love it when the kool aid crowd blames the tea party for taking us to the brink......Obvioulsy the fact that there were TWO sides to the impass doesn't seem to register.........The dems were just as adamant and in fact despite Boehner's claim that he got 98% of what he wanted, the man had an agreement with Obama to allow 800 million in new taxes and Obama wanted more taxes.The guy is still on the air talking about more taxes. And this super panel..Both sides set this up knowing it won't due a dang thing because you have 3 men from each party who can deadlock on anything.....The debt ceiling was inreased to 17 TRILLION overnight, which is exactly what Obama wanted. That's what scared the hell out of the S&P, who if you care to remember warned Obama way back that they expected over 4 trillion in cuts before they would believe we were serious about reducing spending............I guess they realized they were talking to the wall..So here it is read it and weap folks, because its just the beginning of far worse days ahead......
madstan
On the S&P website, they claim the lowered rating is direct result of the debt ceiling compromise. Boehner said of the bill, "We got 98% of what we wanted..."

I hope he is happy.
MikeSoja
--*The Republican Party took the country to the brink of default, and for what?*--

It take two to tango, Klein.
jillcohen
To protect the "job creators" who don't seem to be creating any jobs, except for maybe future jobs for the Gopers who are going to lose their seats in '12.
Bob651
In a way my friend, I hope your right. I hope the Dems take back the house make a few gains in the Senate and put Obama back for another 4 years...If that doesn't end up bankrupting the country, I don't know what would. And then the Bush blame game won't float anymore...It will be all you guys......
MikeSoja
--*To protect the "job creators" who don't seem to be creating any jobs, except for maybe future jobs for the Gopers who are going to lose their seats in '12.*--

You're too clever by half, I'm afraid.
eoniii
Just looked at the list. We're tied with Belgium and New Zealand at AA+ but still ahead of our bankers China and Japan (both AA- ).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_...
cprferry
If borrowers believe U.S. debt is riskier, not compared to other nations but compared against their trust in us and measure of possible default, then the costs to borrow will increase. That's not a good thing. We should aim to be the mid-90s Chicago Bulls not some champion (or finalist) in a down year for the league.
eoniii
I thought this paragraph from S&P's announcement was interesting:

"When comparing the U.S. to sovereigns with 'AAA' long-term ratings that we view as relevant peers--Canada, France, Germany, and the U.K.--we also observe, based on our base case scenarios for each, that the trajectory of the U.S.'s net public debt is diverging from the others. Including the U.S., we estimate that these five sovereigns will have net general government debt to GDP ratios this year ranging from 34% (Canada) to 80% (the U.K.), with the U.S. debt burden at 74%. By 2015, we project that their net public debt to GDP ratios will range between 30% (lowest, Canada) and 83% (highest, France), with the U.S. debt burden at 79%. However, in contrast with the U.S., we project that the net public debt burdens of these other sovereigns will begin to decline, either before or by 2015."

S&P must not see the approaching Republican landslide or recognize its fiscal policy implications.
wonderingstevie
The time to throw out the tax code and go to flat tax has arrived.
hill_marty
Ezra, your ability to serenely survey all this and fail to place any blame in your god-child Obama's crib is truly amazing.
Beacon2
I don't think a downgrade is based on a single person, it takes a village.
HokieBabe1
The only good thing to come out of this is this: when some ninny asks me "Why do we need to teach our children history, statistics and civics? " for the next thirty years I now have the perfect example.
ssensharma
Does anyone here remember the nickname they got during the hedge-derivative fiasco? It was Substandard & Poor !!
Hoss3
Good one!
bert8
In order to remain competitive, Moody's will be downgrading the US momentarily. This should (slightly) improve the rates on my "I" series savings bonds, although they now have these maxed out for purchase of $ 5000 per year. Those are new rules that were installed just about 10 days ago by Treasury, and not well covered in the media.

You see, my friends, we are sunk. We have a President who knows virtually no economics and has no courage with a Congress that is incredibly irresponsible, and a Senate composed of old fogies. Our government is highly dysfunctional and not up to the challenges of the 21st century.

Meanwhile, the media thinks it can play favorites with information (such as not speaking about the above in the first paragraph).

We are therefore sunk until our Country becomes courageous and permits the speaking of truth again.
kaune
Perhaps, S + P should now be investigated for their fraudulent rating of several banking organizations which helped to lead to the great financial disaster. Their rating is meaningless at this time.
ken17
S&P has a fabulous track record. They batted 0% in the housing debacle. And now they are in politics.
Hoss3
Is this the same S&P that rated the Lehman Brothers "a buy" a week before it collapsed in September 2008?
Publicola1
> The Republican Party took the country to the brink of default, and for what?

Ezra, I rarely engage in ad hominem - but you're an idiot. BTW saw you on morning Joe with the Santelli - the bell you heard was signifying "class in session".

We have a democrat party that has not submitted a budget for close to 3 years - and it is the republicans who are causing a lack of faith in matters fiscal - yeah right. The downgrade is based on our out of control spending and the amount of debt we have - they (S&P) said we needed $4T in cuts over 10 years and all we could get the dems to agree to (kicking and screaming) is a measly $1.2T (with a "promise" for more later).
jedku
Republicola,
If your party doesn't start taking this seriously and raising taxation levels from the lowest we've had since 1948 and repealing the Bush Jr. "surplus" tax cuts, this country is doomed. You cannot balance this budget with austerity alone, you will destroy the economy.
jedku
Your Republicans have played with fire and we will yet see if they burn down our fiscal house.
2 more (expand)
cprferry
The best time to consider ones' deficits is at the time each new spending or revenue bill is passed as well as new estimates arrive regarding their long-term costs. We've punted on that for 3 decades.
bert8
By using the debt ceiling as a political weapon, the Tea Party and Republicans pointed to the American Achilles Heel. The next one is our system of free speech. I cannot get a 'top comment' from WaPo because they censor me because I speak from the left.

We are a dying civilization.
ginger470132
Bert, we're not dying....we are seeing a cold hearted fiscally stupid party that is about to dissolve before our eyes. This last stent oughta do it because they cause so much havoc to our economy! The tea-baggers is doing it to them!

Just watch.....the polls are showing it already!!!!
bert8
You have no idea, ginger, how delusional Americans are. I speak to them. It's like they are all on Acid. They keep talking and talking about fiscal restraint in an economy with very soft demand and a 16% U6 unemployment rate (that counts the workers who gave up or took lower paying jobs or part-time jobs). 16%! And, Republicans are worried about inflation!
Centsorsense
"S&P is downgrading their estimation of our political system, not our actual ability to pay our debts. ", doesn't that sum it all up?

Like most rational people I have confidence in evidence based policies. That is how to create a sound business, an effective school or a well run government.
Faith has no place in the business world. Faith is a five letter word that means you don't understand, but are sure that you are correct. That is what the Tea party has fundamentally misunderstood. Being clueless means that you should listen and learn.
They have Faith that tax cuts will solve all our problems.
S&P has several hundred years of evidence that cuts alone will not solve a problem this big.
You can see who the market trusts. 
eoniii
Yeah, but that's nonsensical. All bondholders care about is ability to pay.
artbab1
The GOP claimed the capitalism system was responsible for the break up of the Soviet Union.
Now it can say the same for the the United States.
Centsorsense
LOL
Well Afghanistan also likes to take credit for that accomplishment.
moebius22
The Post finally reports the news. Slipping, slipping, slipping.
Sarah04-1
Your boys cause an historic catastrophe and you find this to crow about. Just pathetic. Really, just pathetic.
moebius22
Your paper sucks. Read from more than one source.
Sarah04-1
moebius is a moron.
bert8
Republicanism is a religion. It doesn't matter what the facts appear to be. Republicans will twist them to fit their preconceptions. They are not interested in facts.
Sarah04-1
Reality is not important anymore. Republicans manufacture the reality their minds live in.
Centsorsense
Many people in America now lead insular lives.
baldinho
Partisans are funny. Every problem everywhere is always the fault of the OTHER side.

Partisans are funny and annoying.
Sarah04-1
Educate yourself:

"Deficits don't matter" – Dick Cheney, VP 2001 – 2009

"http://www.offthechartsblog.org/what’s-driving-projected-debt/"
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3...

An earlier version of that study with some information not in the later version"
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3...

http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/misleading-mantra-ta... 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/43917503#4... 
artbab1
Stagnant median income since 1973 has come to an end.

It id now going on a sustained decline.

Good going. GOP and DEMs.
jillcohen
The government hating GOP and Teahadists are to blame. No respected economist thinks that our problems can be solved by spending cuts alone. Investment is needed to grow the economy. The current plan of the GOP is going to contract the economy.
eoniii
Teahadists and Banana Republicans! The left wing is in top form tonight! You're the go-to wing for clever invective.
02smith1
The Bush tax cuts expired on December 31, 2010. In 2009, the Democrats controlled had the House and had 60 votes in the Senate, Republican Senator Voinovich said he would not vote to extend the Bush tax cuts. Yet, they got extended anyway. Both parties own this.
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Sarah04-1
As I said, read and educate yourself, you fu king moron:

"Deficits don't matter" – Dick Cheney, VP 2001 – 2009

"http://www.offthechartsblog.org/what’s-driving-projected-debt/"
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3...

An earlier version of that study with some information not in the later version"
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3...

http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/misleading-mantra-ta... 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/43917503#4... 
artbab1
Don't worry we still have QE3, 4,5,6 and so on. One of them is bound to work.

After all, Bernancke knows all about the GREAT DEPRESSION
wonderingstevie
Besides, progressive governments going broke is the fad these days. The US will fit right in.
Sarah04-1
It will if it keeps following Republican ideas like it has for the last 11 years.
jeffreed
Mr. Klein has a dog in this fight. If he were an honest reporter instead of a partisan columnist, he would have noted that when the Democrats were in the majority in the House and Senate, they would have raised the debt ceiling. They made the decision that it was good politics not to and they did not. Also, I might well add that in 2006 all the Democrat Senators including the junior Senator from Illinois a man named Obama voted against raising the debt ceiling. Personally, I say a pox on both parties and the whole debt ceiling mess is an example of the failure of our political system. Ironically, no one wants to talk about Medicare, Social Security, and off the book stuff and if they did they would be truly frightened. Simply put, we may well have something north of 80 trillion dollars in unfunded liabilities and the true sum may well approach 100 trillion dollars.
moebius22
Blame only goes one way on the Washington Post.
Sarah04-1
Blame for the mess we're belongs to the Republicans. Quit embarrassing yourself. Here's what you need to know:

"Deficits don't matter" – Dick Cheney, VP 2001 – 2009

"http://www.offthechartsblog.org/what’s-driving-projected-debt/"
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3...

An earlier version of that study with some information not in the later version"
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3...

http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/misleading-mantra-ta... 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/43917503#4... 
2 more (expand)
cprferry
It should be pointed out that debt ceiling fights in contested congresses are regularly combined with debates on spending, taxes, entitlements and budget controls. In 1990 Democrats in Congress allowed only 6 short-term debt ceiling increases over 5 weeks until they were able win concessions on tax hikes.

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